Episode 13: Is It Possible to Change The Mind of an Anit-Racist (a conversation with Dr. Ibram x Kendi)

Kamran Rosen: Hi. Welcome back to Let's Talk About Race. The show where we do away with yelling in favor of in-depth, informed discussion with experts. We're joined today by Doctor Ibram Kendi, historian and author of the international bestseller How to Be an Anti-Racist, as well as Stamped From the Beginning The Definitive History of Racist Ideas in America. Doctor Kendi, thanks so much for being with us today.

Dr. Kendi: You're welcome. Thank you for having me.

Kamran Rosen: I'm very happy to be talking with you today. I think a lot of the experts I've talked with in the past have really been about understanding perspectives and history. I think what I really appreciate about your work is you focus on action, specifically how to be anti-racist. And I know, you know, I mentioned in our email, you know, the MLK quote that Obama used as well, that the moral arc of the universe is long, but it bends towards justice currently. And it kind of it's hard for people like me. You know, I haven't really seen times that make me feel as pessimistic as the president. And I think a lot of the discussion is what can be done, what should be done. And I think the overarching theme I'm trying to understand is, is it possible to actually change a racist person's mind? I think there's kind of competing, um, you know, narratives that I've heard. Don't waste your energy. Don't waste your emotions talking with people who cannot be changed. I personally believe that it's a fight that we have to continue on with. I don't believe that we can give up on people we believe are are too far gone. So I have a lot of specific questions, but from a high level, um, what is your position on that? Do you believe it's possible to change the mind of someone who is racist?

Dr. Kendi: So I, I do, and when this question is asked of me, the way that I think about it is, has anyone's mind been changed in history? Right. And and of course, there's a whole host of examples of individuals who, who were racist and who are now striving to be to be anti-racist. Probably one example that comes to mind is there was a former leader of the Ku Klux Klan named Don black, who in the mid 1990s, created the first white supremacist website called Stormfront. And it became almost like a clearinghouse for for white supremacists and and former Klansmen and neo-Nazis. Uh, you know, as the internet was, was, was, was taking off. And, uh, he had a son he named his son Derek. Uh, and Derek's godfather was a close friend of Don black. Uh, and his godfather is named David Duke, who was a the Grand wizard of the Ku Klux Klan in the 90s and probably had become in the 90s and early 2000, the most prominent Klansmen in the United States. And both Don and David Duke sought to raise Derek to really become the heir apparent to the white supremacist movement. Uh, and to a certain extent, take it into the mainstream in the way a Richard Spencer did. And, uh, Derek ended up going to college at the New College of Florida. And while he was in college. He began an intellectual transformation. And there, of course, people have written on his story and he's written about his own story, but he is now somebody who who was raised by some of the most audacious white supremacists in the United States, who is now striving to be to be anti-racist.

Dr. Kendi: You know, apparently my book stamped from the beginning was one of the books that he read along his journey. But I think that his example shows that, you know, people can change now. Is it likely? Probably not. Um, but I would not, you know, as, as a scholar, you know, as a scientist, if any, if a person has changed, then that means other people can change. What I will say, though, very quickly, is I think that we should understand people who hold racist ideas or who are being racist is, it's almost like those who have an addiction. So it is very, very difficult for anyone who has an addiction to a substance — even if that substance is racism— to first even acknowledge that they are addicted, let alone begin the process of changing. And so when we think of people in our lives who are addicted, I don't think we would say it's impossible for them to give up or move away from that addiction. But we would also say it's incredibly difficult for them to do so. And I think that's how we should understand someone who is racist, really beginning the process of transforming themselves.

Kamran Rosen: That's a great and very thorough answer. Uh, I hear what you're saying. You're saying if I have seen evidence of something happening in the past, I, as a scholar, have to acknowledge that that's a possibility. You also did caveat saying you don't know how likely it is. I know percentages are kind of, you know, not meaningful. But would you say on a on a macro basis, on an aggregate basis? Is it because I, you know, I believe people can change, but it might take a lot of work to get one individual to change. So if we're looking at a broader societal issue of racism, you talk about kind of how, uh, I think it was systemic and institutional and structural are all part of the same type of, of racism. So we're looking at it from a very broad perspective. Do you consider it worth the time to try and work on individuals as opposed to broad policy?

Dr. Kendi: So what I would suggest is I do think people should work on individuals in their own lives and simultaneously support larger structural changes that can give us the ability to transform millions, if not billions of lives. And what what that means in terms of those larger structural forces is to give an example. In the United States, people are systematically taught to be racist. And one way in which people are systematically taught to be racist is in schools. And what happens is there are let's take a curriculum, which is, to me, indicative of most curriculums that do not actively teach children in elementary, middle and high schools about racism, about racist ideas and about racist policies. If that child is growing up in the 21st century, then chances are they are seeing in their own communities all sorts of racial disparities. They're seeing black and brown people being more likely to be impoverished, being more likely to be unemployed, houseless, incarcerated. Uh, and they're also not... No one is teaching them why. And so when you don't actively teach a young person why a particular racial group is on the lower end of socio economic disparities, there's only one other explanation that there's something wrong with them.

Dr. Kendi: And then when they those very people are not showing up in the curriculum like meeting their stories, their histories. You're indirectly teaching those those, those children that are these people are lesser because they're they're showing up in a lesser way in the curriculum, and then they're seeing them on lower ends of disparity. So by not talking about racism and not teaching about racism, and by introducing the stories, particularly of people of color at a lesser rate, we're indirectly, if not directly teaching young people systematically to be racist. And then we're simultaneously our media is doing doing the same thing. And and so it it. So what I would seek to do at a macro level is to actually transform our racist educational system to an anti-racist educational system in which we're actively teaching young people about racism how to recognize racist ideas about racist policies that are actually causing disparities in our society. And we're ensuring that the cultures and stories of all groups are are represented fairly equitably in the curriculum.

Kamran Rosen: I think I totally agree, and I think education, that's a big part of why I hope to have this podcast is to serve as as education as opposed to entertainment, which I think a lot of the news media currently is. I do feel it's a little bit tough to hear that in the context of our current political climate, where things like critical race theory and Dei are actively kind of being scapegoated as the boogeyman. And so it's great to have the ideals of anti-racism and the effects of racism taught at a young age in education, but it seems like we're actually going backwards from that, and it sinks for those things to happen structurally. You need buy in from people who have already kind of gone past that formative era, right? We're talking like adults sometimes towards the end of their life, who really seem fixed on the ideas that they have. And so they're kind of impeding and actually regressing the educational processes. Have you found any effective tools for speaking to that age person, that person who feels very solidified? Because I think we have to really get the buy in from them in order to start teaching younger kids.

Dr. Kendi: So one of the interventions that I sought to make in my book stamped from the beginning, was for us to begin to think, to distinguish between the producers of racist ideas and the consumers of racist ideas, and in the book largely chronicled those who were producing racist ideas over the course of American history, particularly anti-black racist ideas. And I sought to show that in most cases, people were producing racist ideas about, let's say, black inferiority, not because they were ignorant or even hateful towards black people. They were producing racist ideas because those racist ideas justified existing racist policies that typically benefited them. So in other words, during the enslavement era, it benefitted. Enslavers to be able to enslave black people and extract maximum wealth. You know, from their from their labor. But then they had to justify the exclusive enslavement of black people, which then became let's produce ideas that suggest these people are fit, either theologically or biologically, for slavery to basically justify and rationalize our enslavement of these people. And so then trying to convince an enslaver that their ideas are wrong and racist was an uphill battle because they likely already knew they were wrong and racist. I mean, they created them with the purpose of, of of gaslighting. You know, the rest of the country. And, and so it's actually more effective to convince the consumers of racist ideas.

Dr. Kendi: But to your point, oftentimes the producers of racist ideas are holding political and economic power and and have the ability, let's say, to shape how curriculums are taught. And so that becomes the, the conundrum. So it's it's it's it is a it becomes a political solution, In other words, you have to gain political power in order to make these macro changes. But those who are in these positions of political power are resisting, are using racist ideas to claim or keep those positions of power. Um, and and so that then becomes, uh, that's why that's why it becomes hard to transform their minds. Because if you're an elected official, let's say who is is white. And you've been largely elected on this premise that black and brown people are coming to harm white people, and you're trying to convince your largely white constituents that that's the case, and that those black and brown people are dangerous and violent and they're coming to replace, you're not going to move away from those ideas, even if you know that those ideas are false, and you're going to want your constituents to continue to believe that there's something violent and dangerous about black and brown people. And so that there becomes the conundrum.

Kamran Rosen: I guess that's where I'm pessimistic. If racism was created out of a vested interest of those who are put on top artificially. That kind of seems like the history of America, right? And so you make a distinction between the producers and the consumers of racist ideas. But, you know, from what I'm hearing you say, it's very it's much harder to convince someone who is benefiting from racism of the, the fallacy or the, the evil of their ways. Um, and so I guess I'm still curious if you are talking about the politician in your example, who was elected by a white electorate and is hoping to reinforce that power structure. What, I guess, what avenues does someone have to say? Hey, I want to try and change that. You know, I think that right now, if we're having our education roll rolled back. We're having conservatives run our our, um, policy. It feels like. Do we have. Is there any avenues that we have outside of the law? You know, that that we might be effective in convincing people of power to to change their ways?

Dr. Kendi: So to me, it's I, I don't I don't see it being likely that we're going to be able to change. Let's say that again, going back to this, to this sort of example, that elected official who is is largely in a position in their in their office because of racist ideas. I don't think it's going to be possible for us to get them to stop producing those racist ideas. But I do think it's possible for us to change the perspective of the consumers of racist ideas, or in this case, their constituents who have been misled into believing that that elected official is acting on their interest. And I think one of the things that we've tried to show as scholars who study racism, who study racism, particularly over the last ten years, is there's been more and more scholarship that have pushed that have complicated this notion that white people uniformly benefit from racism and let's say black and brown and indigenous and in and Asian folks are harmed by racism. We've tried to show it's a much more nuanced situation that, in fact, in a general sense, let's say most white people benefit more from racist policies than do, let's say, black people. But white people tend to benefit generally even more from anti-racist policies that are equitable. To give an example, if you you know, one of the things that we've been talking about recently is the attack on affirmative action. And so the attack on affirmative action most harms black and Brown and indigenous students, but it's also harming white women who are the greatest beneficiaries of affirmative action. For instance, the attack on Dei more broadly that that certainly harms people of color.

Dr. Kendi: But if you're a white person who comes from a rural area, if you're if you're a white person who's queer, if you're a white woman, if you are a white Jewish American, if you are a white working class or impoverished American, if every basically every type of white person, quote unquote, who is not wealthy, white, heterosexual and male is being is actually been is being disadvantaged by the attack on on DEI. Now, are they being disadvantaged Advantage as much as people of color. No they're not. Um, and so that's part of. And so what we've tried to do to and, you know, one of the more, you know, I've written about this and how to be an anti-racist. I've, for instance, written about the Civil War. Uh, you largely had poor white people fighting to, uh, maintain the slavery that primarily benefited rich white people and or during the, the, you know, you had these Nazis, you know, during Germany, uh, during Nazi Germany, whose policies and measures led to the desecration and destruction of a large number of Germans, Aryan Germans. Right. Uh, and so we've written about how anti-Black racism doesn't just harm black people. It actually harms, uh, the vast majority of of white people, too. And so that's a way in which to speak to, let's say, that person's constituents And frankly, in this era of Trumpism, I think to a certain extent, there's more and more white Americans who are seeing how someone like that who's deeply anti-black, how their policies are so harming them. And I think that's one of the ways in which we could make an intervention in this moment.

Kamran Rosen: And is that done interpersonally? Is that done through mass media? Is there a particularly effective medium for trying to, because it feels right now like conversation is broken down, a lot of misinformation, social media. Is there from a scholar perspective, is there a medium that has been particularly effective in trying to educate kind of the consumers of racist ideas?

Dr. Kendi: What what I, what I find is, is that, well, I think it I think it's hard to speak to answer that question because how it's going to how each individual is potentially transformed is different, so there are certain individuals that are going to be more impacted by an interpersonal connection. There are others who they don't really. You know, some of us, we don't care about what people in our own midst think. But then if we read an article or a book, we're actually going to value that more. And so I think a more effective and effective strategy is to have those types of offerings in every capacity. But what I should say, which complicates it. And I don't want to add to your pessimism, but what's complicating it in this moment is that many of the people who are thinking this way, who need to be changed, are indeed operating within an atmosphere of misinformation and disinformation. And so cutting through that atmosphere is incredibly difficult. And then simultaneously, you have a growing, to a certain extent, a growing number of people of color who have been misled into believing some of these racist ideas about their own group or about other groups of color. Which then is also empowering those who are seeking to conserve racism.

Kamran Rosen: Yeah, I've definitely seen that with both Trump, um, elections. I, uh, want to be mindful of your time, but I want to ask one final question, because I think a lot of people who listen to the show, I think are would like to be, um, you know, helped champion the cause of anti-racism. I'm very cautious about people pointing the finger without self-reflection. I think there's a lot of people I've met who are quote unquote, you know, anti-racist allies or, you know, well-to-do liberals that I find in their own ways are exceptionally racist, you know, but they just are very outwardly, verbally against who they perceive to be racist people. And I think a lot of the backlash has come from the white working class who sees white liberal elites who don't really have any, you know, black people in their circles or places of work Any really way of integrating within their society. Who are very vocally shaming the working class whites who a lot of times I see. Of being more integrated, uh, racially, but maybe having less high educated views, whatever we want to call it. How do you advise people to help in the cause of of educating others without, I guess, losing sight of, of their own role in racism?

Dr. Kendi: Well, what I will say is I have a certain level of empathy for people who are at a different point in the road to being anti-racist than I am, and because chances are I was in that place or at that place at some point in my life. And I think, and I think that we have to have that empathy, um, and we have to have that understanding. And frankly, that's one of the reasons why I wrote How to Be an Anti-Racist in the Way That I did, which was largely a book about my journey internalizing particularly anti-black racist ideas, and how I was ultimately able to recognize those ideas and begin unlearning those ideas to be anti-racist. So it wasn't a book lecturing anyone or indicting anyone except myself, largely so. It was largely a book indicting myself and and, and and so I think when we're talking to other people, it's more effective for us to tell them what we used to think or what we're striving no longer to think, and trying to get them to join us on that journey of self-reflection than it is to indict that person in an interpersonal level about what it is that they're doing or not doing. Um, and, and, you know, I certainly will agree with you that there were that there were people who decided that they were going to to walk around and policing, you know, other people, you know, as opposed and thinking that's what it means to be anti-racist, you know, as opposed to really engaging in this serious process of self-reflection and self-transformation and not transforming themselves for the sake of transforming themselves, but really transforming themselves so that they can be a part of a larger movement to change these structures, uh, the structure of racism that's that's harming us all.

Kamran Rosen: That's great. That's great advice, empathy. And I guess leading with, with your own experience, I think is definitely a way to hopefully reach a bridge with people that that, as you said, are beginning that process. We're all kind of continuously on that road. Um, it's been a pleasure to talk with you. I could talk with you for for hours. I know you're very busy, so I'll let you go, but for those interested, is there anything, I guess the final touch point. Is there any particular book of yours that you would recommend starting with? For people?

Dr. Kendi: I would recommend for people to either start with how to be an anti-racist or stamped from the beginning. If you're more of a person who likes reading memoir and personal reflection and more contemporary material, I would encourage how to be an anti-racist if you are. If you enjoy narrative history, you know I would encourage people to to start with, stamped from the beginning.

Kamran Rosen: Okay. That's excellent. Well, I'll let you go to your next interview. Thank you so much for your time today.

Dr. Kendi: You're welcome. Thank you for having me.